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DeliciousIndependence for Scotland is natural
Friday, March 05, 2010Scotland needs to be independent to make sure it never enters another downturn as catastrophically ill-prepared as the UK was this time, Stewart Hosie has said.
The SNP deputy leader at Westminster used a Reform Scotland conference on the future of the UK constitution in London to set out his case.
It was held in a room at St Stephen's Club dominated by oil paintings of the Houses of Parliament, and Winston Churchill, a Dundee MP for 15 years – his habit of using England and English rather than Britain and British symptomatic of the uneasy relationship between the two countries.
"Independence is the natural condition for a nation like Scotland," Hosie claimed, adding most small nations in Europe and around the world are nation states, governing themselves: "They are not too small, too poor or too stupid and neither is Scotland".
Its natural resources, and starting point of a mature democracy and already independent institutions, gave it a massive advantage over many of the nations that have become independent over the last years.
"With more powers for the Scottish Parliament, we can grow our economy, deliver more opportunities for individual and national success and ensure a brighter future for all of us. It's time to make progress."
Hosie attacked what he called the "subsidy myth" of anywhere between £2 billion and £15 billion a year – insisting: "There is no Union dividend – just a cost."
He also explained what an independent Scotland could have done differently and better, faced with the global financial crisis.
"We would have had an oil fund to cushion the blow and money in the bank (or at least much lower debt levels) leaving something in the tank other than borrowings which our children and grandchildren will be paying for to stimulate the economy."
Shadow Scottish secretary David Mundell said support for separatism was at its lowest for 30 years, while stressing the Scottish Parliament has been successful and devolution works.
They would not support any proposal that undermined the Union, and so rejected full fiscal autonomy, which would create a black hole in Scottish finances.
But localism was one of David Cameron's frequent themes: "We see devolution as a first and most significant step in that power shift, and we want to build on it.
"We want decisions to be taken as closely as possible to the people they affect."
Mundell said they were committed to taking forward the substance of the majority of the Calman recommendations on non-financial powers and the relationships between Westminster and Holyrood.
They also accepted in principle the need for increased borrowing and taxation powers, but the government's devolution white paper had come close to the general election, and they would want the proposals fully scrutinised by the Treasury before moving forward.
Cameron had pledged they would set out how to implement the Calman proposals before the Scottish elections next year, and wanted legislation in place before 2015.
Alistair Carmichael, Liberal Democrat shadow Scottish secretary, said they were committed to Calman, although it was not the summit of their ambitions, and regretted there was no opportunity to act before the election.
There were two real threats to the Union, the West Lothian Question and the Barnett Formula, and both Labour and the Tories were only too keen to ignore them.
The current situation is not sustainable, is producing growing resentment and needs to be addressed: "The English people have to discuss it, and decide if they want regional government or an English Parliament."
Scottish Minister Ann McKechin said the unprecedented global recession had reinforced the economic benefits of being part of the UK, and attacked the SNP's "separation obsession" and refusal to be involved in Calman.
United Kingdom is a euphemism for England bailing out Scotland.
Why should Scots be the only oes to decide the future of the United Kingdom?
Many English people would like England to be independent.
Stephen Gash - Carlisle England
Independence for England is natural.
Jerrard
Yes Scots are a nation not just a race.
Shiwan goeh - Sydney, Australia
The number of small Independent nations has mushroomed over the past 3 decades, but even had that number fallen, it would still be right for Scotland to be Independent.
You cannot discover Oil and Gas and have little or nothing to show for it after 35 years while your larger neighbour can boast the Channel Tunnel, high speed trains and rail links, TWO London terminals with major upgrades, the M25, the Thames Barrier....the list goes on, not to mention Britain's pathetic economic position in the 70s which caused us to go cap in hand to the IMF. Even Ingham admits Oil saved the UK at that stage.
In short, Scotland can't afford to stay in this union, the price is far to high, the rewards almost non existent.
Brian Hill - Edinburgh Scotland
"With more powers for the Scottish Parliament, we can grow our economy, deliver more opportunities for individual and national success and ensure a brighter future for all of us. It's time to make progress."
"Hosie attacked what he called the "subsidy myth" of anywhere between £2 billion and £15 billion a year – insisting: "There is no Union dividend – just a cost."
well is that true or as later in the article
"They would not support any proposal that undermined the Union, and so rejected full fiscal autonomy, which would create a black hole in Scottish finances."
It appears you can be both viable and not receiving subsidies from the rest of the UK, whilst at the same time unable to have "full fiscal autonomy" because it will "create a black hole in Scottish finances" very strange.
G
Can I have a say in the political future of Scotland then?
Seeing as you all have great ideas on what I should do; how I should think and what I decisions I need to take.
Thanks for that - and now about Scottish Independence, my penny's worth.
Stop whinging about it; stop blaming everybody else and just do it - or are you just waiting for England to throw you out?
That would takes the pressure off you of course, and would still leave you the option of blaming the English for all future problems ... oops I think I just answered my own question.
Junius - Compton England
Brian Hill - I appreeciate your point of view, but to be fair it's worth noting that the channel tunnel was built by a private company. It's also harsh to criticise any government for taking action on flood protection, for a city of the significance of London. The cost of the Scottish parliament and projected costs of the Fourth road bridge replacement aren't strong arguments for Scottish government involvement in capital projects. What I do find amazing is that the people of Scotland or media in Scotland don't make an issue of the fact that you can't drive south from it's capital on anything more than a single carriageway highway, that the Ediburgh city bypass is not fit for purpose at rush hour, that you can't get the train to Edinburgh airport, and when you do get there the choice of destinations is poor.
Andrew G - Edinburgh
As I understand it (and I may be wrong) independence does not mean sovereighnty and self determination for the Scottish people. The SNP policy is independence within Europe. Instead of England, Northern Ireland and Wales having a major say in the affairs of Scotland, what you will have is all 20 plus nation states in the EU having a bigger say, (including England, Wales and Northern Ireland!). Power will move from London, to Brussels and Strasbourg. Britain has negotiated some signifcant opt outs from Eurpean law in the past, but I can't quite see Scotland having the clout to do the same on it's own.
Independence in Europe surely means the euro for scotland too. A Scottish pound and a scottish central bank is not a realistic prospect. So Scotlands fate would be the same as that of Greece if it fell on hard times (and be honest, who can find a government anywhere that saves money for a rainy day?!). Do the Scotish people want their pensions paid out in Euro's? With the pound at an all time low against the euro surely that would wipe a huge amount of the value of pensions away on conversion, which would be devastating. In summary then independence probrably is natural, but could be devastating. Finally, I would say that despite the comments above, the reduction in hospital waiting lists since the SNP's rise to power in the Scotish Parliament is commendable.
Andrew G - Edinburgh
The United Kingdom is a euphemism for London, and it has been since James VI and I travelled south. I am personally fed up with the southern bias eg The "London" Olympics paid for by the "British" taxpayer and the "National" Lottery - while the Glasgow Commonwealth Games .......? The UK government has had the benefit of Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling as well as many other talented (?) Scots - time for us to make our own decisions!
Jim Reyner - Muckle Roe, Shetland
YET ANOTHER Nationalist bringing up the too wee, too poor, too stupid argument!
What is it about the nationalist psychology that makes them always want to do-down Scotland?
Alex - UK
We should all have a say in our own country, but a union prohibits that for all members as it requires compromise and concessions. We should each get a say for our own country as to whether we want to be independent.
I can see no obvious reason why England would want to continue with the union any more than the Scots. In fact would go so far as to say that the independence of all of the countries would benefit our relationships, allowing us to enjoy and celebrate our differences.
Julia - Glasgow, Scotland
Here Here, bring on the referendum!
Graeme McDonald - South Lanarkshire Council.
Many Scottish people would like England to be independent.
Bring on the referendum - I wish - we need the English led politcal parties would bite the bullet and agree to it happening.
krys